Loot rules for Dar Narbugud

what about the option that everyone who doesnt win an armour piece during a complete run ( i.e all 6 bosses down) gets an additional point at the end? that way thoses that regulary raid will have a slight advantage over the ones ( like me) that will try it from time to time. I know this will ake it slightly difficult for infrequent raiders but it means thoses that attempt it every week with the kin wont feel as frustrated?

I really like that idea.

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The current, informal loot system has worked well with the Turtle and Warden, which are single-boss raids, but we need a slightly more sophisticated system for Dar Narbugud

I have to ask, why do we "need" it? We can say we need it, but that doesn't make it true.

The informal system works best in terms of Loot in DN, better than it does in the Turtle and WAtcher in fact;

A simple rule :

One Item, per night.  If you win Teal armour, you don't roll on Nimrodel Coins.

Complicating the system with points only serves to separate the Regular Raiders from the rest of the Kinship.  If you're there, you should have as much chance to win as anyone. If it gets to a stage where someone has been a hundred times and won nothing (FA or Teal item) then it might come a time to implement such a system.  In reality that very rarely happens.

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I tend to agree with Arath. We operated a good system in the Rift: each person got to roll for every item (assuming they didn't already have it) and once you won an item you could no longer roll for any teal item that evening. Each roll you passed on granted you an extra roll for the next lot of loot i.e. if you passed on the armour piece from the first boss you got two rolls for the armour piece from the second boss and so on. That was a simple system and it had the advantage of giving those who only needed one or two armour pieces extra rolls so they had a better chance of getting the few remaining pieces they needed. It also meant that alts and semi-regular/random participants stood a good chance of winning items as well as regular participants.

I've never been a huge fan of points based systems because they invariably grow complicated with keeping track of the points everyone has plus there are issues surrounding alts and part-time participants as have already been touched on above. The biggest concern I have is that other people will be discouraged from raiding with us if they don't come every week because they will be at a disadvantage if the rest of the raid has accumulated a significant number of points. It also discourages kin members from coming along who perhaps haven't signed up every week and that can happen for various reasons, one being that some classes are restricted to one or at best two slots in the raid for balance purposes and thus places may go fast leaving some people out on a regular basis.

The Art of Warg

As to why we might need such a system: for exactly the same reason we finally had to implement an ad-hoc system in the Rift. Namely, people who had taken part in virtually every single attempt and pioneered the Thrang and Thaurlach fights often lost out a roll to somebody who might have come along for perhaps the first time. I do think that those who spend a long time working out the tactics for a fight (and perhaps wiping time and again, which means getting no reward at all) until it can be farmed by the rest of the kin deserve to be given a small advantage; as I wrote in my second post, "The point is to give a slight edge (though not an overwhelming advantage) to those players who are regulars, and who help pioneer the raid".

Taking on board some of the suggestion posted in this thread, I think I can come up with a simple scheme which achieves this aim, without being unduly discouraging for the very casual raider. Anyway, I'll post a modified proposal on Monday, and we can vote on it from Tuesday.

As for Belegwe's point that some classes are restricted to one or at best two slots per raid - well, they will inevitably be at a relative disadvantage anyway, point system or no point system...

Granted that they will be at a disadvantage anyway, but under a points system the disadvantage is heightened. No system is perfect of course, and as one of the people who went to the Rift week after week to get one item and failed each team (I still don't have the shoulders!) I thought it was generally a good system albeit flawed as all systems are.

My main gripe with a points based system is that it does favour the people who go every week. Now I recognise that for those who do attend every week that's fair because they sign up and actually take part in the raid. However, for the casual raider or those who don't always get a chance to go every week for whatever reason or for a random we pick up when needed the lack of points they have accumulated will almost certainly put them off. It doesn't seem fair to me that someone might come along and have no, or very little, chance of winning anything of substance. If someone come along on a raid they should have the opportunity to win something of substance too and not be at a serious disadvantage. I recognise that Kairos said that regular participants should have a slight advantage, but there is the real possibility that someone could come along with no points whilst the rest of the raid have already accumulated several points. That would put the new person at a serious disadvantage.

The Art of Warg

I'm with Arathrandir and Belegwe on this. I might not know all details of this, but in general, it's a good idea to keep it as simple as possible, and then adjust if there are issues along the way. I rather enjoy the smoothness in which people in the kin handle looting on a practical basis. Too many systems and points confuse and muddle things, and makes for a 'mini-game' in the game for very little benefit (I am thinking).  What Belegwe suggests sounds great to me actually. Well, those were my initial thoughts, and I'm glad Arathrandir and Belegwe gave voice to them

It doesn't seem fair to me that someone might come along and have no, or very little, chance of winning anything of substance. If someone come along on a raid they should have the opportunity to win something of substance too and not be at a serious disadvantage. I recognise that Kairos said that regular participants should have a slight advantage, but there is the real possibility that someone could come along with no points whilst the rest of the raid have already accumulated several points. That would put the new person at a serious disadvantage.

On t'other hand, have you considered that an absolutely level field might be equally unfair to the pioneers of the raid?

The other point to take into account, will be those guys who not in TWA, and likely to get bumped by TWA members, but then asked to come along when needed for class balance, any system like DKP will hurt them because they just can't come along as often as TWA members who have priority in raids the way its set up at present within FotW / TWA.

The Casual method thats always been used for watcher / turtle, where if u win a Teal Item you can't roll for others does work well in DN as there is some nice jewellery more than one piece of armour dropping a night etc.

We didn't use a points system in the rift and rarely did we have any trouble there. It wasn't perfect, but from what I read here I prefer it to a points system.

If a points system is adopted, then perhaps it could include other teal items. I only say this as, using the rift as an example, it would have allowed certain people a chance to get hold of rare loot like say... Wigfeld, far early than they ended up getting it as everyone was entitled to roll. No idea what the other loot is like in DN though.

However, i'm generally not in favour of a points system.

OK, as most people seem not to want a point system, we'll drop it for now. Unless somebody is in favour of a poll? Seems unnecessary, on balance.